GEN BUCK TURGIDSON: Doctor, you mentioned the ratio of ten women to each man. Now, wouldn't that necessitate the abandonment of the so-called monogamous sexual relationship, I mean, as far as men were concerned?Haha do it for the children. Hawt!
DR. STRANGELOVE: Regrettably, yes. But it is, you know, a sacrifice required for the future of the human race. I hasten to add that since each man will be required to do prodigious... service along these lines, the women will have to be selected for their sexual characteristics which will have to be of a highly stimulating nature.
AMBASSADOR ALEXI DE SADESKI: I must confess, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor.
Well, Mr. President, we must not allow
a hormone-filled gap -- a decade and more of likely sexual activity before marriage. And for those in that gap, there is little helpful guidance from the broader culture. Brad Wilcox, director of the National Marriage Project at the University of Virginia, argues that the "courtship narrative" in the past was clear: dating, engagement, marriage, children. This narrative has been disrupted without being replaced, leaving many 20-somethings in a "relational wasteland."You hear this sort of thing from time to time, but of course, the "courtship narrative" is an artifact of mostly Western cultures that lasted for, what, a hundred years? If that? And only among certain classes and within certain social orders. For most of human history marriages have been arranged affairs, although what constituted arrangement varied widely from culture to culture, era to decade. Indeed, the manner of making marriages is and was like so many other cultural practices an artifact of the social economy, since the family is not principally a moral, but an economic unit. Our current period of long sexual adolescence and later life-pairing reflect the times we live in. You know what else most people don't have until their late 20s thse days, Little Mikey Gerson? Real jobs!
86 comments:
I think most people get real jobs before their late 20s, but I agree the delay in getting one compared to the past is a factor. That's why we need to scrap this higher education (and even highschool) bullshit and go back to apprenticeships. It will abolish teenagers, for the betterment of humanity.
This narrative has been disrupted without being replaced, leaving many 20-somethings in a "relational wasteland."
Coitus?
This narrative has been disrupted without being replaced, leaving many 20-somethings in a "relational wasteland."
huh. that's a really long-winded way of saying "anal sex".
more seriously, yeeesh, there are tradeoffs for everything and greater social fluidity isn't necessarily the end of the world, even when children are involved. shorter: people will make bad decisions with or without formalized structures.
I like it too. It's a male myth
about feminists that we hate sex.
It can be a natural, zesty enterprise.
But unfortunately there are some
people--it is called satyriasis in
men, nymphomania in women--who engage
in it compulsively and without joy.
You know what else most people don't have until their late 20s thse days, Little Mikey Gerson? Real jobs!
Or houses. Or health insurance.
They are generally also obliged to move from city to city in search of these things, which tends to interfere with stable long-term relationships.
It's sort of funny, really - these are the same arguments that used to be leveled against the working class in England, then American slaves, then poor black people. They're now being applied to all young working Americans, who are, I suppose, the new underclass.
"Why can't these people just settle down in a nice house with a nice job and pop out a few kids in their 20s? What's wrong with them? Why do they keep moving about from one temporary job/apartment to another for years on end? They're just plain irresponsible and immature, which is why we're justified in treating them like garbage."
I have no idea what Gerson is trying to say, apart from the usual pining for a world that never really existed.
And his conclusion is what, exactly? That people should get married young to the first person they go on a date with and stay that way no matter how excruciating the other person's presence is so they can train their kids that it's better to stay miserable than offend the sensibilities of Michael Gerson?
Of course the age of first childbirth has been increasing too (e.g., although fertility rates haven't evidently decreased since 1980 or so), with the U.S. comparing similarly to other advanced countries (we're number 14, yay) as it does with most other indices of civilization.
It's funny that these "relationship narrative" people so badly want to go back to a time when there was less people. Isn't that wanked-after repopulation strategy just going to contribute to the basic problem of everything?
"oh no!" the dude
"oh yes!" maude
and some people never get a "real" job their entire lives. gerson, look in the mirror. ("are you employed, sir?")
Ya know, IOZ, you being queer and all, I must admit that I never pictured you as the Jane Austen type.
What the fuck is the "Jane Austen type"?
while it may not be realistic to maintain the connection between marriage and sex, it remains essential to maintain the connection between marriage and childbearing.
see what he did there? he said childbearing even though he goes on to talk about childrearing. just keeping the door closed shut on the gays, i guess.
Despite his poetic preening and reliance on arcane verbiage IOZ aint much of a student of literature.
It is true that I do not actually know how to read.
In fact, IOZ is just an algorithm that receives as input an Internet link and returns a vicious and culturally aware response.
So...what he's saying is that condom/pill use has prevented shotgun weddings in the way that he thinks happened thanks to orgies at 50's drive-in movies?
What the fuck is the "Jane Austen type"?
Judging by the offended tone, I'm guessing you.
"shorter: people will make bad decisions with or without formalized structures."
I, for one, think that there are huge advantages to having those bad decisions made by society rather than the individual.
Between marriage and death, there is Forever.
TGGP has a great idea. Bring back apprenticeship, although now it would likely be tied to corporate interests - your materials science degree sponsored by Exxon, for example, with a contract that requires you to work for them for X years (or pay back the education cost). Of course this will cause the progressives with trust funds to get the vapors - where's the fundamental human right to pursue a BA in Feminist Narratives in Modern Art and have the government subsidize it? But for intelligent folk (and civilization itself) it will be a boon. Higher education based on merit and focused on the skills needed in the marketplace.
Apparently not a student of biology either.
That's one of the most famous opening lines of one of the most famous novels in the English language--we're talking top three here, people. As IOZ says, to expect him not to know that book is like stating that he doesn't know how to read.
I'm not sure anyone expects that. Judging by your inference of such a thing; I'm beginning to suspect that you don't know how to read.
I see why everyone around here shits on you all the time, NoT.
It's cause I'm a fecalphiliac and I like it. Thanks Daniel. Next, time, though, less corn.
Time to dust off my copy of anti-oedipus.
IOZ, courtship is as old as dirt as are "courtship narrative(s)".
Rather than being economically determined the family unit, arranged marriages, and courtship are slaves to their master, DNA.
--
btw/ I'm the one criticizing IOZ's misunderstanding of courtship and the family unit, not the freak calling for Imperial examinations and apprenticeships in service of the "marketplace".
-Anonymous2
I appreciate that you're trying to bring back "not," too. I've always been partial to "psyche," myself.
"I, for one, think that there are huge advantages to having those bad decisions made by society rather than the individual."
localized damage seems less damaging than generalized damage.
in general, i mean.
Like a heart attack vs sunburn! In general I mean.
Also, sarcasm was my goal. I'm not sure what yours is.
...and I blame it on the Intertoobs. All that sweet, sweet flesh out there. Hell, It'll take me at least a decade to find that special someone who lets me take a dump in her mouth.
Bring back apprenticeship, although now it would likely be tied to corporate interests - your materials science degree sponsored by Exxon, for example, with a contract that requires you to work for them for X years (or pay back the education cost).
It'd be like a co-op program, or if in some cases, like grad school. (I guess paying more in the first case, and with more obligation in the second.) As it's practiced today, it's not the worst of all arrangements.
Not as helpful when you want an English degree.
The System---
Maybe not as odd as one might thinks, since the modern-day analogue for Jane Austen is Camille Paglia.
An apprenticeship in what exactly? How to greet people at Walmart? How to ask for $1,184 a month once denying private insurance to those who've been sick before becomes "illegal"?
Spare us the Newt Gingrich sociopathy. While you're at it, why don't you brave nutsacks lead the way by pushing your own kids into these apprenticeships?
Oops. It'll be more like $1,814, won't it? It's already $1,184.
My bad...
How right you are, Michael Dawson - the only authentic education is that which has no marketable value (in other words, a skill no one would be willing to exchange their labor value with you, in order for you to perform it). To think otherwise is nasty, brutish, and short - a Republican convention writ large.
P.S. Can I get auto insurance after I get in an accident, and expect them to pay for repairs? If not - horror! I only ask because I don't own a car, I have someone drive me to Whole Foods.
Wow, Anon (the psycho one). Way to use a clumsy, Manichean view of the world. Either we support that shit you were selling or we clearly embody everything against which you have an axe to grind. What, did a humanities major refuse to blow you, or what?
The thing is, I agree that the college system is such a sham, and I speak as someone who gamed that baby pretty well. But what you're saying? Well, I'd expect that much grounded and patiently-honed insight from an art school student. Ironic, n'est-ce pas?
these are the same arguments that used to be leveled against the working class in England, then American slaves,
Slaves? Their families were split apart, and after emancipation many walked across several states to reunite. A lot of modern stereotypes about blacks didn't actually apply a long time ago. Their marriage & employment rates were generally as high or higher than that of whites for many decades after the end of slaves. A lot of modern behavior among urban black communities is the result of a gender imbalance owing a lot to the war on drugs. Tim Harford gives an accessible explanation in The Logic of Life. Having more women than men allows men to act in an unconstrained manner, and men are pigs. A higher ratio of men to women forces men to behave better. I wrote about that recently here.
Michael Dawson, I don't have any kids. But if I did, I'd do just that. Charge them rent too. You have my word on the honor of the internet. Also, Wal-Mart greeting is reserved for old people, silly!
It would seem that to "maintain the connection between marriage and childbirth", he's advocating birth control and abortion as options for pre-marriage pregnancy. After all, in his point #2 he decries marrying teenagers just cause they get preggers. Right Bristol?
Good points all, but you're ceding way too much ground to Gerson.
Who says "the courtship narrative" has disappeared? Sex for fun isn't demonized the way it once was, but most popular entertainment still has characters who are looking to fall in love with somebody for the rest of their lives, and who go about it via a series of dates in which the two participants feel each other out, a "courtship" if you will.
Even sex comedies usually have at least a couple of characters looking for something long term.
It's a pretty big leap to go from "casual sex is pretty okay now!" to "The entire idea of romance and marriage has disappeared from society".
Looks like psycho anon just discovered Ayn Rand. Hey jackhole, come back in a few years after you're all grown up and have realized why only idiots and sociopaths want to reduce everything about human existence to market transactions. Or just shoot yourself now. Your call.
Cuneyt,
Seriously? Dawson goes all "Thinking that perhaps there is room in our system for reviving apprenticeship in some form? OMG that's for Walmart fascists and somehow because of this people will be dying in the streets with no post-facto health insurance!!" and I'm being accused painting with a broad brush? Je'cuse!
Look, it's not about reducing all human interactions to market transactions. It's about consent, and being able to sell your labor (or products thereof) to someone who values them, and in return receive something that you desire. Where does love and compassion fit in, you may bleat? Wherever you want it to - that's choice and consent again. The antithesis of government force and dictate. I know, I know, I must be stoned on Ayn Rand (no generalizations here) and one day I'll grow and realize that true freedom comes from using government to try to live at the expense of everyone else.
I'm not necessarily throwing my lot in with Dawson and what he's pushing, but you're distorting what he said, which was basically skeptical and not a position in itself.
And I'm not saying that I want to use government to try to live at other people's expense. I just questioned your eagerness to allow business to live at our expense, and define our education which, while flawed, will not be fixed by introducing Pepsi U. and the like. How do I know this? Because that's how it's been working in large part for some time. The school-to-market connection has been effected, and so your promises don't mean much to me, or many more people around here. But I can't get a handle on TGGP, so if he's picking up your shit, then that's one for you.
Though, to be fair, TGGP's original statement isn't that bad, and actually intrigues me. Your whole corporate scenario, though, is fucking ridiculous. It is laughable that the modern capitalist entity, a product of the modern state, would vilify both the state and the education system which it uses to cloak itself in meritocratic language and costume. Not necessarily surprising, but to any critical thinker, laughable.
the market is not an honest broker. (see JR Boyd channeling Marx.)
Qvote:
"That's one of the most famous opening lines of one of the most famous novels in the English language--we're talking top three here"
Now, that for damning with faint praise.
The Christians
Anonymous doesn't seem to understand how the higher education system in the United States currently functions.
What he's calling for has been in place for a very long time it's just not so explicit that you have to wear an Shell Oil jacket when you go off to chemistry class.
However we still have subversive dykes studying Kathy Acker and reading Edward Said while listening to Fela Kuti in their dorm rooms.
They must be banished from our midst lest they infect those pursuing more nobler goals! Onward and upward in the name of science, and progress, and Exxon Mobil!!!
What an imbecile.
TGGP would enroll his (hypothetical, of course) 14-year-old in an apprenticeship rather than high school, and would also charge that same kid rent.
Nuff said.
ROFLMAO
P.S. One wonders is TGGP's child would be allowed to own a baseball bat. For TGGP's sake, let's hope not...
On behalf of Exxon-Mobil, I'd just like to say that we like the current system, where all the costs of training our employees are placed on the individual and government, just fine.
Thank you.
It is laughable that the modern capitalist entity, a product of the modern state, would vilify both the state and the education system which it uses to cloak itself in meritocratic language and costume.
All is absurd. It's not uncommon to find cogs of the state vilifying corporate entities or the education system, or cogs of the eduction system vilifying corporate entities or the state. And of course it makes sense for partisans of either party to vilify the other though from the perspective of many here, it's Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber.
Apprenticeship really seems a pre-corporate institution of the days of artisans that Chris Lasch supposedly waxes rhapsodically about. Even Proudhon, father of anarchy (if we don't count Godwin & young Burke) , approved of it, having been an apprentice himself. He also went (even further) into debt to apprentice his nephews. During apprenticeship, the youth would likely be boarding with their mentor, and so would not owe me rent. No free-rides for laggards slow to pursue apprenticeship though. Before they are old enough to take apprenticeship they will not rack up debt, but will have to suffer my stories about the Bad Old Days when so much of our lives were wasted sitting in class listening to useless babble we didn't care about and would swiftly forget.
One wonders is TGGP's child would be allowed to own a baseball bat. For TGGP's sake, let's hope not...
There will be no baseball nor golf at chez TGGP (it bores me out of my skull), but they will have rifles & shotguns. Unfortunately, in the future all meat will be grown in labs, so they will have to shoot boneless turkey's launched by clay-target throwers and deer-shaped meat-mounds moved by R.C cars. My rhetorical questions about whether a bear shits in the woods will produce befuddlement.
Apprenticeship is an excellent idea, and I say that as someone who doesn't often agree with TGGP --or, perhaps, as someone who doesn't understand TGGP's peculiar humor, if TGGP's posts are intended as comedy.
Apprenticeship shouldn't be a substitute for education, but rather it should be a way of learning a trade or craft. As someone who has dabbled in metalwork, specifically the construction of custom bicycle frames from steel tubing, I would think an artisan-guild type of apprenticeship would be most effective for a lot of things.
Most of all it would increase human interdependence, which would increase interpersonal understanding. And somehow, that's a bad thing?
Color me naive, then.
I don't think I was clear enough in differentiating TGGP and the lunatic Anon, whom I singled out for criticism. I remain interested in apprenticeship and think that college has swollen from a specialized education to the new high school, featuring general education while also exacting a heavy price from most students. Vocational work is legitimate as any work requiring advanced degrees.
Anyway, SteveB said it better than I could have. I still don't know what you're about, TGGP, but the lunatic Anon doesn't seem to understand that the educational system is already set up, by and large, as a four-year job fair. And those less-than-marketable majors may either be window-dressing or, in my experience, a great source of future college employees. Getting all ready to change the world helps make a lot of volunteers who'll do anything for a campus.
in my experience, a great source of future college employees.
Indeed. For most, on a contingent basis, with slim chance of getting tenure.
That's a great link.
And if I might clarify how I feel the divide falls between Anon and me: I believe I am critical of the university in practice, while he--I presume--is critical in theory. I believe there should be places for non-marketable knowledge and skills; he seems to object to them on principle.
Neither of our positions are incompatible with increased training systems (such as the non-capitalist institution of apprenticeship) and, in fact, I believe that more positions should be open to people who are either naturally proficient or who want to work their way up from the lower rungs of this or that organization. High school should be the most common terminal degree, though this must be accompanied by a corresponding shift in power or funding so that colleges do not create (even more of) an elite.
Video game arcades (if kids these days still patronize them) are places with non-marketable skills. We'd think it perverse if anybody who's anybody was expected to attend a 4-year arcade camp, funded by government and/or ginormous endowments, but as a radical subjectivist I don't see how a round of Street Fighter is more or less valuable than a paper on normative philosophy or Egyptology. Both kinds of non-marketable activity rely very heavily on the intrinsic motivation of the practitioner, whereas unpleasant activities like janitorial service require a threatened loss of income for shit to get done (I should probably check out what Bob Black had to say about that).
Such characteristics make it seem to me to be the natural preserve of amateurs (as many scientists were in previous centuries). But I suppose my perspective is odd, seeing little reason for Little Leagues structuring the schedule of kids when the perfectly flexible substitute of Calvinball is available. I'm confident though that my ideas are so great the only reason anyone might not believe them is that they haven't heard them expressed, repeatedly and at high volume. You mark my words, right after I take down De Beers regarding the norm of diamonds-as-integral-to-the-marriage-process, I'll follow it up by getting the rest of the country singing my tune on education.
so that colleges do not create (even more of) an elite.
Universities are a lingering inheritance of the medieval Church. Fostering an elite has always been their function. What I think is most hilarious how many jockey for position on various rankings, with a major component being the SAT scores of incoming freshmen. That's not even pretending to indicate value added!
I may be a lunatic, but based on what I've just read above, if we were all chillin' out with TGGP and he had one beer left, he would offer it to me first. So eat shit.
Universities are a vestige of the medieval Church, which is why so many were founded by Henry VIII and in the Northern German realms?
Universities have always had a tie to the powerful, as did the philosophers of ancient Greece or China or where-ever. But they're not specifically rooted in the Catholic Church. The skills and knowledges they encourage are, of course, a value call, and that'll usually go the way the strong want it to. But sure, if you want to equate it with any non-marketable activity, you can. Seems ludicrous to me, but then I'm not as hardcore as some. I've said that I want university to be put in its place; you clearly think the same, only that that place is the wastebasket.
And Anon, I think he'd make you earn that beer, so by all means, try and get it. Your scenario and the following dualism are still sloppy and you still sound like a dull little twit.
Video game arcades (if kids these days still patronize them) are places with non-marketable skills. We'd think it perverse if anybody who's anybody was expected to attend a 4-year arcade camp, funded by government and/or ginormous endowments
Nonsense. I give to you any number of (okay "three") well-studied documentaries, where they did exactly that.
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